Nigel Grainger brings together a related set of skills that all fleets require, to greater or lesser
degrees, but which may not have the staffing or the skills to fulfil those needs.
Bringing his wealth of experience in all areas of fleet management he offers a bespoke service through his company Fleet Risk Consultants, providing you with a cost effective fleet that complies fully with your 'duty of care' requirements.Towing Trailers with Vehicles and the Law
I have found my self in a really strange place recently.
I have advised a client that to comply with the law they must fitted tachograph units to some of their vehicles and obey the driver hours regulations. The problem is that neither the vehicle manufacturers or the tachograph manufacturers have a solution for most smaller vehicles. By smaller vehicles I am talking about 4×4′s, pick-up trucks and cars.
This means that my client cannot meet the requirements of the legislation at all. This is a situation I find ludicrous. To give you some more background I suggest you read further.
The Gross Train Mass (GTM) of some cars now exceeds 3,500kg and a large number of these are cars purchased by or for businesses. Now for those who are not in the know, Gross Train Mass is defined as the weight of the vehicle, any trailer towed behind it and the weight imposed on the two. The weight of 3,500kg is important because vehicles with a permitted Gross Mass in excess of 3,500kg are required by European Law to obey EU Drivers Hours and Tachograph Law, if the vehicle is used in connection hire and reward (business use). This initially involves the fitting of a Tachograph Unit to record data about the activities of the driver and vehicle.
To establish the permissible Gross Train Mass or even the permissible Gross Vehicle Mass of your vehicle you need to find the VIN Plate. This is a metal plate stamped with the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), and a series of 4 numbers that denote weight in kgs. The Gross Vehicle Mass is the top number, the Gross Train Mass is the second number, the Front Axle Mass is the third number and the Rear Axle Mass is the last number. These weights are the Maximum permissible masses allowed, not the current mass. These plates are either under the bonnet or on one on the sills inside the front doors. The design of the vehicle is not important only the permitted masses.
Until recently all passenger cars had a Gross Train Mass of 3,490kg and hence fell below the threshold of 3,500kg, but with the advances in technology the car manufacturers have been able to increase the capacities of the cars, in some cases, far in excess of 3,500kg. They have done this, in my opinion, to allow people to tow larger caravans more safely, which is a definite bonus. Also the private use of these vehicles to tow a caravan will not require a tachograph to be fitted.
The problem arises with the purchase of these newer vehicles by the fleet industry. These vehicles are being used for business, and if a towbar is attached to allow the transportation of goods in trailers by the business, then the vehicle falls within the regulations. The big issue is that the car manufacturers have yet, as far as I am aware, to produce a tachograph unit that is able to be fitted to their vehicles.
It is not illegal to sell these cars without a tachograph as the manufacturers do not necessarily know the use the vehicle will be put to, but if you are using the vehicle and you do not comply with the law you will potentially be looking at prosecution. Fleet Risk Consultants are already discussing this issue with a number of manufacturers on our clients’ behalf, but if you tow trailers in connection with your business you should be raising the issue with your vehicle supplier.
Whilst we are on the topic of tachographs it is worth noting that almost all the panel vans, 4 x 4 Pick-ups and Sports Utility Vehicles (SUV) will require a tachograph when towing for business.
Your individual use of vehicles and trailers may fall outside the regulations as there are a few exceptions available, if you are in any doubt you should either contact us directly or seek other legal advice.
As for my client, we are now looking at using Trucks rather than the more cost and fuel efficient smaller vehicles.
Nigel Grainger
Senior Consultant
December 24th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Hi,
Just to say that I am curently struggling with the loose and inaccurately drafted Tachograph and working hours regulations as they apply to a low frequency low hours( average 8.5 hours in scope per week)as applied to two 4×4 vehucles towing trailers with a combined Maxi,mum permissible mass of over 3500 Kg.
Fitting and using the tachos themselves was no problem BUT keeping adequate records when the tachos are only required when towing and the conseqyuences of the rule that triggers driver hours recording if just 1 day between two weekly rests includes driving over 4 hours. This requirement is at complete odds with the flow chart showing the required use of records printed earlier in teh same VOSA document. I await an answer, 6 weeks so far, from VOSA to other queries arising concerning working hours definitions and recording rest when 3 or 4 miles away from the vehicle on other duties. There are at least a further dozen points that have been raised but most have been sent up to VOSA HQ for policy decisions.
I await developments
Regards DG
January 13th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Hi from Ireland, very good post, deserves a Digg.
February 13th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Hi All,Wish I had read this site before we make and deliver animal housing,we bought on hp a brand new toyota 4×4 pick up towing a tri axle trailer (All new tyres etc).
We were stopped by VOSA 10 days ago they fined us £200 and issued a prohibition notice on us for not having a tacho.
The toyota main dealers knew our business and what we needed the vehicle for they even fitted the towbar but my ignorance of the law means I have had to have a tacho fitted or close my business, the cost of the tacho is £1520.00 plus vat plus the fine plus being off the road unable to deliver the whole situation is a nightmare.
Toyota,Ford,Landrover and the like should issue clear guidance on this matter do any of the readers think I can claim against the Toyota dealer who sold me this vehicle.
Regards all
Phil
February 13th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Hi Phil,
There is probably something in the Handbook about the tachograph, there is in the one for my Landcruiser.
Give me a call 01623 675833, I may be able to help you.
Nigel
February 28th, 2010 at 6:16 am
Good post, I bookmarked your blog so I can visit again in the future, All the Best
February 28th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Hi, I have the same problem. I am a sole trader and do small handy man jobs I have a vivaro van and need a trailer ma by once or twice a month to move a micro digger / carry scaffold tower / the od ton of gravel. Just found out about the new law shouldn’t some information have being sent out to commercial van owners to make them aware of this law. Back to my business I am now thinking that I will have to ether close my business down or stop a lot of my work, this could make me stop in the long run. I travel no more then 20 miles from my base. What a f**k*p for small business peoples trying to make a living. There must be some exceptions for small business peoples or there will be more people out of work. I was told to buy 4 X 4 for personal use and use that to tow the trailer? My business can not afford £1600 + vat + all the rest that goes with the cost of running the system. Trust the EU AND OWER GOVERMENT to do this it seems as they don’t want people to work. One very p***of Dave
March 1st, 2010 at 9:43 am
David,
Give me a call 01623 675833 and let us discuss it as there may be an exemption we can use for you.
The same applies for anyone else who is struggling with the rules, that is why we are here after all.
Nigel
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I was stopped on the 2nd March 10 and told by vosa that I had a proabition order served on van for seven days(swb vauxhall vivaro) and the accompanying policeman (jumped-up little hitler) gave me a £200.00 fine. I only use the trailer occasionally to collect cars on behalf of customers. The nature of my business is restoring classic vehicles however, the van is registered at my home address and is not a `works` van and is not sign-written but this did not seem to matter. Nor did fact that I had not been notified of this change in the law. I have no intention of paying the fine and may choose to act as an example for ALL of those other unfortunate individuals who have shared their same story on the internet. I consider that I am an exemption due to the van not being an `obvious` works van
If you would like to contact me I would be grateful. 01202 814602
March 3rd, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Hi
Having been stung by police for towing a trailer with a 3500kg merc sprinter, finding it confusing about tachograph laws.
If a tachograph is fitted for the purpose of towing a trailer, would you need to use it all the time as it is now installed?
thanks
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Phil,
The short answer is no. If you are not within scope of the rules you do not need to use the tachograph unit.
Give me a call 01623 675833 and we can help you understand the rules.
Nigel
March 17th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Your web site is brilliant I will have to read it all, thank you for the diversion from my workload!
March 26th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Crazy. We have been hiring expensive compressors occasionally for years and decided to buy one. Now we find out that we can’t move it until we have a tacho fitted to one of the service vans. Do we then have to use the tacho all the time?
April 14th, 2010 at 11:16 pm
I like what im hearing, but im in a dilema being a small time farmer/contractor always pulling a 16 foot trailer carrying a tractor or machinery for my job will i need to have a tacho fitted to my old nissan pick up worth less than 1500 pounds, its discracefull ,we just last year were issued with animal in transit laws now this burden ,i think its money making gone mad, on the working class.
April 15th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Hi Arfon,
There is a very good chance that you will not need a tacho fitted to your pick-up.
Give me a call 01623 675833 and tell me more information about exactly what you are doing and I will see what we can find to help you.
Nigel
April 22nd, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Good Comments. I agree with your point.
May 1st, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Good evening guys.
Firstly I must complement you on your website and the information it holds!!
I find myself in the same position as many of your colleagues. I have just ordered a new 3.5 tonne truck which I will occasionally use to tow a trailer. I will build my own body (We have a classic car and museum operation)and have a tacho fitted for the occasional ‘tow day’. But I have also been advised by a very respectable recovery body specialist to fabricate a removable towbar as he is aware of VOSA stating that if a towbar is fitted you are capable of towing at any time and hence should be continually on tacho!!?? Trailer or not! What happens when the tacho realises that 99% of the time there is no card installed? This wouldn’t be a problem for the analogue system but having never used a digital I’m not so sure . Plus like others have mentioned….the cost of all this!
Any advice would be extremely welcome.
Thanks again.
David
May 10th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
What a brilliant website. I’ve been going around in circles trying to find out if I need a
tacho, I’m really hoping you can clarify the situation. I am a soletrader with a large panel van, and occassionaly (maybe once a month) I have to transport handmade gates to my customers. The weight would be over 3.5 tons train. This is usually no more than 60 miles away at the most, but usually I work much closer to home. I am under the impression that I would need a tacho just for this work? If so could I use a paper record or would I need to go to the expense of buying a tacho (which would probably cost me more than the van did !!) I would be really grateful for your help. Manythanks.
June 20th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Hi David,
The digital tacho records all movements of the vehicle regardless of whether the vehicle is in or out of scope. How would teh stupoid thing know if there was a trailer on teh towball?? The nonsense about needing a tacho just because you have a towball fitted is just that. Nonsense. The regulations clearly state that vehicles or vehicle combinations with a gross permitted mass, note not actual mass, require teh use of tachos. If teh tow vehicle complete with towball weighs less than 3500 kg you are exempt, if teh trailer plus vehicle GPM is less than 3500 kg you are exempt. However in practice this means that you can only tow a little hobby trailer of about 750 kg GPM with the average 4×4 before the GPM exceeds 3500 Kg and so requires a tacho.
However all this applies only to vehicles being used commercially so towing your mates car home on your Ifor Williams flatbed, a non commercial activity needs no tacho provided there is no hoire or reward involved.
Use up all your tacho hours allowance during teh week , come home and couple up your 26 foot caravan and off you go and can drive for as long as you like without tacho. Crazy or what???
I have had a long and difficult correspondence with the VOSA policy advisor, traffic enforcement, One Susan Traynor and it is clear that VOSA have not prosecuted enough of the borderline cases where vehicles only fall into the scope of the regs when towing to clarify the very poorly drafted regulations.
I now keep a complete working diary showing when I am using the digital card in the tacho, when I am driving under the horticultural exemption, when I am on site but not driving, when I am at base in the workshop and when I am at base in the office.
This sort of detail is required even if you drive under tacho rules for just a few minutes per week as the regs require that you account for your non-resting time between each weekly rest period. There is also a need to prove compliance with the transport working time directive requiremenst for an average 48 hour week over any 17 week period.
There is an amazing amount of intrusiveness involved, I work at home on Health and safety stuff on my copmputer. Technically this shopuld be recorded as other duties even if I do it at 10 at night rather than waste time on facebook and the like which are “rest activities”. How the hell this could ever be proved for the purposes of prosecution against me I do not know but Susan Traynor was very insistent that I must comply.
I caould run on for ages but enough is enough.
Regards DG
September 5th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
I have the same problem and i can not find the answer, i have a 6 month old Ford Ranger, 90% of the time not towing with GVW over 3.5t, my problem is do i have to have my drivers card in the tacho if i am on private milage or non towing milage no one seems to be able to tell me. There is a lot of rubbish out there, one post said i should us the “Out of Scope” button, others say don’t put the card in. Say i am dead heading or towing an empty trailer GVW less than 3.5t for hire/reward, under law i do not need a tacho, if i than pick up a 1.8t load i do need to use the tacho. Help Help
Thanks in advance
Sean
September 17th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
I work for a company that hire and sell Decontamination units for the asbestos removal industry. They are trailers that look like road side burger vans. All that is inside them is two showers and a place to get changed. We pull them with Renault Master 3.5t vans. I was told that we didn’t need tachographs because they are covered by the same rules that govern caravans. But if we were to put one box inside these units that is nothing to do with the Decontamination unit, then the thing becomes a trailer and we need a tachograph. Is this true?
September 19th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Adrian,
Actually you have been mis-informed as there is no exemption for caravans anyway. There is an exemption for private use, but this would not apply to you either.
If you would like some further advice or assistance please call me on 01623 675833.
October 4th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Hi, Great website, however everyone has a different problem, I have a 3.5 ton van I fitted a towbar to pull my dads boat out of the water weighing 1 ton. Do I need a tacho for this van and would I be permitted to tow it to my dads back garden without a tacho. My trade is carpet fitter.
October 17th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Hello,
We run a car delivery company covering both long distance and local use and are looking at using either a ford ranger or nissan navara as a tow car for moving single heavy cars, The areas of concern are what type of tachgraph we will need to fit ( at what year they have to be digital) can we drive the pick up with the trailer attached but no car loaded without using the tacho, I.E drive to a collection without tacho load up and turn on tacho? do you know where i can get a list of vehicles that can have tacho’s fitted to and cost’s involved.
Thanks
Andy
November 18th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
A reply to Sean 18
Hi Sean,
Only use your card when driving resting during the day or performing other duties on the same day you are driving and when you are towing commercially.
At all other times the vehicle is completely outside the tachograph rules BUT you must obey the requirements of the frivers hours rules. Here OUT of Scope does not do it for any driving out of scope is considered as duty hours and these are limited to 11 hours per day. Watch out if you choose to use out of scope for any reason because at midnight the tacho will default back to Other duties and begin accumulating duty hours. I puit my navarra out of scope before going off on holiday and ended up with a fortnight of continuous other duties despite teh vehicle not even being turned o.n
Of course the Digital tacho will go mad and complain that you are driving without a card but ignore it and let it record garbage.
You will need a diary to show that on any day ypou drive without putting a card in the tacho you were driving privately, driving commercially with no trailer or driving commercially with a GPM of less than 3.5 tonnes. For most 4X4 this allows just a little toy trailer.
The diary will be very useful anyway as you have to record your working hours for the purposes of the Transport working time directive average 48 hours in a rolling 17 week period).
The diary will also be very useful to account for the lack of the required tachograph records of your activities during the previous 28 days.
VOSA’s policy chief says that a driver cannot be expected to have the required 28 days of tacho records if you have not been driving within the regs BUT then added that the VOSA inspectorate would be expected to interview you and demand an explanation of why there are no such records. The diary will she said be “useful” to support your claim that you have only driven occasionally within the regs.
Oh and one more thing, always but always carry your driver card when driving snything.
I know this is all a right pain and the law is an ass but the law has some substantial financial teeth and the pedants and jobsworths amongst the VOSA inspection cadre are only too happy to persecute ” non-compliant” drivers.
December 9th, 2010 at 2:22 am
In may this year i got stopped in stafford by VOSA in a transit ST van with a brian james tri axle car transporter trailer carrying a transit st van and was told if i was to use this vehicle for such use ie business i must fit a tacho in which i did straight away at the cost of £1200 i since got stopped by vosa a week ago with a little renault kangoo van in sussex and was prohibited to go any further claiming i was 970 kgs over weight.why didn’t vosa at stafford tell me that my van and trailer could only carry approx 250 kgs legally before they had me fit the tacho?
January 22nd, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Hi All,
If I was to tow my trailer with my land rover discovery the train weight would be under 3500kg but when loaded over 3500kg,does this mean that I could drive empty to my collection point without using a taco but when I was to return back to base with the trailer loaded (over 3500kg) need to use a taco?
Or do I need to run the whole journey with the card in the tacograph?
I used to work as a long distance lorry driver so used to know the law quite well but does the same working and rest hours apply to me in a land rover?
Thanks.
January 27th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
excellent message board. Me to was thinking of either getting a trailer for my 3.5t truck or getting a 7.5t truck. To get a 7.5t truck you need an operators licence which is an absolute joke for cost and restrictions, but now after reading your site it seems that its just as hard to have a trailer to because of the tacho and driving restrictions, all these regulations and rules just make you want to give up sign on the dole and sponge of the state, as if you try to get on in life and try to abide by the laws you are kicked in the teeth every way you turn.
Before i started to look into this i was aware of none of these rules, went into the dvla site just to check first and because i passed my test before 1997 i am entiltled to drive a 7.5t truck and a van and trailer. after speaking to VOSA they confirmed that yes i can drive a 7.5t truck legally with no operators licence but as soon as i put anything connected to business in the back even say a pair of work boots i am then breaking the law and need an operators ticket, but if i am moving house i am legally aloud to move it all under no restrictions, and i also read that if i am a registered charity i can do almost what ever i want without having to comply with almost nothing, what a joke.
February 4th, 2011 at 7:33 am
OK I have read all the above and I am still not sure. A Ford Transit 3500kg that is used in tree surgery so will be carrying wood/wood chip away from site to a dump site and towing a wood chipper that is 750kg. The chipper dose not carry a ‘load’, ie it is just a dead weight, but when the truck is loaded just under the 3500kg and the chipper is conected the GTM could be over the 3500KG. Any ideas?
February 13th, 2011 at 2:11 pm
I DRIVE A LANDCRUISER COLORADO AUTO PULLING AN 18ft MOBILE TOILET…I AM IN THE PROCESS OF HAVING A DIGITAL TACHO FITTED AND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT ELSE I REQUIRE TO STAY WITHIN THE LAW I.E. (CARD READERS,DOWNLOAD DEVICE ETC)
DO I REQUIRE A COMPANY CARD AS WELL AS A DRIVER CARD (SOLE TRADER/OWNER OPERATOR WITH JUST THE ONE TRAILER)
GREAT WEB SITE BY THE WAY.
February 13th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Hi David(28),
The rule is simple, the chipper or any piece of plant towed behind your truck counts as a load or burden and its weight adds to your fully loaded truck weight. In your case with a s.5 tonne transit the combined vehicle gpm is over 3.5 tonnes and so a tacho is required.
However tree surgery may be able to claim a horticultural exemption but this will limit you to just 50 km radius from your base.
One other thing 60mph maximum speed not the 90 plus some lunatics were doing when they passed me with a big chipper in tow.
Regards David G
February 13th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
Reply to Steve 22
Simple test:
Did your dad pay you in any way, cash, kind etc for hauling his boat out and about.
If the answer is yes this was a commercial activity with a gpm over 3.5 tonnes and needed a tacho.
If the answer is no and you were just being a good helpful son then this activity was not commercial but was provate use of the van and so needs no tachograph.
Regards David G
February 13th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Reply to Oli 26
Oli.
The tacho needs to be used if the GPM is over 3.5 tonnes. The GPM is the sum of teh maximum plated weights for both the vehicle and its trailer. This applies regardless of the load actually being transported on teh trailer.
Let me give you my own weights as an example: Nissan Navarra capable of 2.8 tonnes loaded plus an Ifor Williams trailer that weighs just 660 kilos but it is plated for 3.5 tonnes. This combination is well over 3.5 tonnes GPM so needs a tacho if driven commercially. The weight the empty Navarra and the empty trailer is less than 3 tonnes but this is not the way the rules are written.
Regards David G
February 20th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
To start with what a fantasic website. Everything that I have read makes sense(sort of). I knew most of what I was reading but am still a little unsure of a few things. I work for a company that has 3500 tonne sprinter vans and we tow trailers with weights in weighing 1500kg, to carry out weight testing on tail lifts. So I know the weights are tools and equiptment if they are to be used by the driver of the vehicle and we are allowed to travel within a 50km radius(about 31 miles as the crow flies) of our base without a tacho but if we need to go out the radius we need to have a tacho. What I need to know is what are the penalties for not having a tacho and we are outside the radius? Is it a fixed penalty fine and points or just a fine made up by the VOSA officer depending what side of the bed he got out of. There are so many grey areas. If a tacho is fitted and in operation and the trailer is used but only for a couple of hours so the trailer is unhitched. Can the tacho card be removed or am I still on tacho laws and limited on my working hours? Also if I was to use the trailer to pick up a damaged lift to be brought back to the base for repair. Does that fall under hire or reward because its for business and do I have to be on a tacho? I have spoke to a few VOSA people and a couple of them didnt even know that tachos were needed in our situations. I have asked our company about it and they said they would look into it but that was about 6 months ago. To be honest I am worried about it because at the end of the day its my licence and their not going to pay fine or pay the extra on my car insurance if I get points. Does anyone know? Cheers
February 24th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
I have a transit tipper with a gvw of 3500kg with a tacho and tow bar fitted from new.question,if i take the tow bar of and take the tacho out and use the truck for buisness upto the 3500 gvw am i breaking any laws.
February 25th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
CAN ANY ONE GIVE ME ADVICE PLEASE REF QUESTION 29
February 26th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Kenney,
I will call you on Monday on teh number you provided as you don’t need to remove the towbar or tachograph.
Nigel
February 26th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Dean,
Give me a call on 01623 675833 on Monday and I will talk t through with you.
Nigel
February 26th, 2011 at 11:14 am
William,
Quick answer is Yes you do need a company card. But if you give me a call 01623 675833 I can talk it through with you.
Nigel
March 6th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Hi Nigel,
Having read all the posts it looks like I will need a tacho. I drive an L200 pickup with a twin axle Ifor car trailer converted to carry 6 meter timbers that weigh a lot. I travel the country building large timber structures. If I am stopped can you advise me of the fine, are points applied to your licence, do you have to leave the trailer and return with a hired vehicle to remove the goods? Can you advise on the cost of getting one fitted and where to go. A great site. Regards. Geoff
March 10th, 2011 at 2:36 am
My collegue got pulled over today. VW Transporter, empty trailer, £200 fine. If I go and buy an old Volvo 940 estate and use that for my towing which incidentally happens once or twice a month, does this get round having a tacho fitted to either the VW van or the old Volvo? Can I then drive my VW van legally with a tow bar still fitted but not in use?
March 11th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Hi Great Post
bit concerned about tacho laws also for instance today went to Shoreham with my Rav 4
gross weight with trailer and goods was 3210 kgs wich is my mass train weight do i need a Tachograph fitted as i am a Haulier ifso do Tacho laws apply when using trailer and when take trailer off to do other work does the working derective come in or Not
Tony
March 13th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Thanks for for help Nigel. Very kind of you to give up your time to talk. You were right, I struggled to find a suitable car with a Gross Train Weight of under 3500.I’ve now purchased a 1999 Subaru Impreza 2.0 Turbo for the same price as a £1450 plus VAT tacho. GTW is 3000 and the towing capacity is well within my requirements.
March 15th, 2011 at 12:32 am
I spoke to the VOSA guy who pulled my collegue over on the phone today. I asked him why I was never told of this law. He said it was impossible to inform every owner/keeper of “our” vehicles and it’s down to us to make sure we are on the right side of the law. I suggested that the DVLA write to owners of vehicles above 3500 gtw imforming of this law. He had pretty much no answer. I also suggested a warning for 1st offence as a way of informing us of this unheard of situation. Again, he struggled to help me here. After 30 minutes of lively exchanges I informed him that I would no longer use my VW Transporter for towing duties and I refuse to fit a tacho. I had to fax my declaration to him as the prohibition order on my van would still stand even if I drive it without a trailer. Yes, my van can not be driven on a public road even without a trailer attached or I risk a £5000 fine….His words..not mine. I’m absolutley furious. I have been forced into either spending 1450 plus vat on a tacho or buying an estate car to carrying out towing duties. Even the fitting centre said they need to inspect my vehicle as they were not used to fitting tachos to the VW Transporter and they might need to gain access to alternative software so that the unit they fit can operate correctly. Absolutley ridiculous.
March 15th, 2011 at 9:21 am
Hi John,
The man from VOSA is wrong about the prohibition or it has been completed wrongly. You cannot be prosecuted or fined for not having a tacho if the vehicle is less than 3,500kg!
March 16th, 2011 at 11:49 am
Crossed wires here, I think. My VW Transporter is 5200 GTW.
March 16th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
Your advise please, one of our drivers was recently stopped at a VOSA check point on the A5 Nr Lichfield whilst towing an iffor williams single axle trailer rated at 1400kg.
Our towing vehicle is a Renault Trafic dc100 swb.Our driver was informed that he was in danger of breaking the law by towing the trailer due to our vehicle not being fitted with a tacho. The nice VOSA lady questioned where he had started from and where he had been and when he told her he had travelled to Burton on trent from our depot in Great Wyrley and was on his way back. She then informed him that due to this distance not being greater than 50Km we would not be fined but just warned and given a book “rules on drivers hours and tachographs” with a dvd, mmmm nice.She had highlighted items on page 11 relating to vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes.
The nature of our business is transporting refrigerated cabinets and equipment new and old to and from sites all across the west midlands and into oxford, swindon and gloucester.
It would now appear that we can no longer tow our trailer outside the 50Km radius of our depot without a tacho being fitted to our vehicle and if a tacho is fitted would we need an operators license?
Your help please!
Regards,
Paul.
March 30th, 2011 at 9:42 pm
i drive a 310d 35cwt sprinter van (mwb) i only travel 140 or so miles a week (i operate car boot sales)a friend told me that as i had one of those magnetic advertising signs on my back door, i would have to use a tacograph, is this true? i only use the van to carry traffic cones & signs to each site, thanks Mark.
March 31st, 2011 at 7:58 am
Hi Mark,
Look on the VIN plate for the vehicle. If the Gross Weight is less than or equal to 3,500kg then you do not need a tachograph unless you tow a trailer.
If you need any help finding the VIN plate give me a call on 01623 675833.
Nigel
April 20th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Hi,
I had recently a tachograph fitted to my VW Touareg. I drive with a twin axle ifor williams car transporter trailer once in a month or less. When I drive without the trailer I use setting “out of scope” which is what is written in the manual. I’ve been reading about the law and I understand that if I go “in scope” for example on Tuesday, I will need to treat the rest of the week as driving in scope although I don’t drive with the trailer? Should I be driving with the drivers card in, even with “out of scope” mode? And finally when I drive in “out of scope” mode, should I still change to “rest” when I stop?
I understand that I need to download data every 28 days even if I didn’t drive in scope
Arek
April 21st, 2011 at 7:32 am
I was stopped by VOSA two years ago driving a FIAT Scudo towing an Ifor Williams trailer. The inspector told me of the law and said I was liable to a £250 on the spot fine, but as I didn’t know about the law ( Which I didn’t) he let me off but gave me a prohibition order coming into force at 5pm that day, thus allowing me to get home.
The Fiat was rated at 3.65 tons GTW. I looked into this and found that the FIAT could be have it’s GTW reduced to 3.5 tons. This cost me £100+ VAT. I was stopped again two months later, showed the inspector the new rating and was told every thing was OK. The inspector had not seen this “down rating” before so he took a photo of the new VIN plate.
April 28th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Hi Nigel, great site very informative!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I drive a VW Touareg with GTW capacity of 6450kg, towing a tri axle 3500kg Brian James Trailer. I deliver cars for VW Dealerships. I was pulled by vosa last week on the M4 at the Swindon turn off (I think he thought I was over weight). I was told I needed a tacho which like most of your other follower I was unaware one was required as this is a privately owned none commercial vehicle(says Estate Car on V5) He was quite cocky at 1st said he was going to give me a £200 fine & I mite have to unload vehicle & trailer. but a few yes sir no sir’s & showing him a daily manual driving record (which I recommend) soon quietened him down & then he was very reasonable to talk too. He went through the process of weighing and said he thought it would be close as I was towing a New Touareg (2150kg unladen) I new I was well under as was loaded correctly & trailer is only 750kg. I weighed in at 5480kg GTW. He was very shocked to see Vin showing 6450kg GTW. At this stage we chatted about the car, & I questioned him about the tacho law concerning my vehicle. He said it definitely need a tacho because it was a 4×4 & a multi purpose vehicle. So I made my point about it was a car & is defined as an Estate Vehicle on V5. Then I questioned him (in a very polite manner) about a VW Passat Estate or Audi A6 Estate. He said they don’t need tacho’s because they were cars & not multi purpose vehicle’s. At this point I was very confused, but didn’t push matters as wasn’t sure of my outcome as yet. At the end he was very understanding, he didn’t fined me, let me continue my journey & gave me 7 days grace, before implementing the prohibition order on car & trailer, so I could work the rest of the week, which I thought was very good of him. But I am now out of work awaiting replies from 8 tacho centre’s for price which seems to be taking forever
Q 49 Arek. Would it be possible for him to contact me about my tacko problem? as he has already had one fitted & I seem to be getting nowhere fast.
Sorry for long winded blog.
Keep up the good work Nigel!
Regards Steve
May 3rd, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Steve,
Have a look at club forum where is my post about fitting tachograph to touareg.
You can find it here:
http://www.mytreg.com/index.php?/topic/8530-tachograph-worried/page__p__75897__hl__tachograph__fromsearch__1#entry75897
May 3rd, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Hi Arek
Many thanks
Regards Steve
May 13th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
hi i currently have a renault trafic swb panel van which is sign written for bathroom fitting, i need to pick a car up which is in no way connected to my buisness, as the car has no engine i will need to tow a trailer. do i need to have a taco fitted or am i ok
thanks in advance
June 25th, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Good afternoon,
I`ve just checked the vin plate on my 2008 Passat 2.0 TDi Estate and it states the Gross Train Mass as 3940kg so even though the actual weight is only 2140kg, if I put a 750kg gross unbraked trailer behind it and I am understanding it correctly, according to these new regulations, I will be braking the law if I use the car and small trailer in the course of my business without a tacho fitted. If so, this is badly drafted legislation and cannot have been the intention of the law.
I presume that here in the UK we will wear the hair shirt with the authorities zealously prosecuting small businesses out of existance while the rest of Europe ignore these rules.
June 28th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Hi there,
Great site. My question is I have a 1991 Pajero SWB and sometimes I tow a car trailer with a classic car on it to and from my own private workshop, this is none commercial so not for hire or reward. The Pajero is not sign written and the car on the trailer is more often than not my own. Do I need a tacho fitted ?. If I tow a trailer with someone elses car on it does this change its use ?ie commercial use.
July 2nd, 2011 at 2:01 pm
Nice to hear from fellow sufferers over the casual towing usage which burdens the ever burdened small business. Having been beaten into submition over the Driving and working time direction (Which incidently has meant the loss of around 30% of my workforce as due to distance travelling we can no longer effectively other the same costed service. I.e. we have become too expensive). So my question is this: What is the maximum day 2 of my guys can work, they both can tow a trailer and both have a maximum daily working time to include driving of 11 hours, I am led to believe that the guy sitting in the passenger seat is Available for work but this does not count towards actual work that day so is it true that Driver 1 could drive say 4 hours, they then do 6 hours work then Driver 2 drives back and so allowing for say around 1.5 hour of breaks (Also not counted in working time) Total Drive 4 + work 6 = 10 hours +4 as availably. So will they be able to do a 15 hour day (knowing they need 11 hours rest and that they must not exceed 60 hours in that week and knowing their average 47 hours over 17 weeks are ok).
Also I learnt recently that if a driver now has another job “outside that of transport” i.e. work in a pub he now legally can do so without effecting his working time on the main job?
July 6th, 2011 at 10:12 am
Answer to quesion 49 Arek.
A lot of people are still in the dark when it comes to vans/4×4′s/cars pulling trailers and VOSA most definitely don’t help with their website; you have to speak to them direct.
You only need to use the digi tacho when towing the trailer if the gross train weight is over 3.5 tonnes and you are using it for commercial purposes. If you are moving your pwn private items such as items for a house move or another car you may own then it is not for hire or reward (commercial purposes) and you don’t need the tacho.
Having said this, because you have driven the vehicle & trailer once in the week for commercial purposes. You are then liable to keep records of your hours worked for the Working Time Directive (WTD). You don’t need to keep the digi tacho card in the tacho head but you must use another form of recording the hours you do. I use a pre designed sheet with the weeks and days printed on it then just write the hours I do on each day.
Hope this helps everyone.
July 7th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
I have a Nissan Navara, and am thinking of buying a little “Sandwich Van” to tow to the site I have been offered.
2 Questions….
The total weight will be around 4.5 tonnes…
1. Will I need a tacho fitted
2. How does this fall into drivers categories, as it now falls into the 3.5t to 7.5t category.
My licence covers this, but there is the question of Drivers CPC and periodic training…?
WOW….what a minefield..
Thnx
Ruth
July 8th, 2011 at 7:48 am
very interesting subject.i have the same problem as dean.I work for a company that services and repairs tail lifts and sometimes i have to do weight tests and have to tow a 1500kg weight test trailer with my 2009 renault master van.6 months ago i was stopped on the a34 by the police and issued with a £200 fine for not having a tacho fitted as i was driving outside the 50km radius.i now have a problem where my boss is insisting that i tow the trailer as he states that i or my licence will not be in danger and that its only the company that keeps getting fines.i am worried as i don’t fully know the laws and wish to do nothing illegal.need advice asap
July 8th, 2011 at 8:21 am
Ruth: You may not need a tachograph. Give me a call and we can discuss it. Also driver CPC is not relevant for you.
John: Maybe your boss should give me a call because there are bigger issues involved than just the fines.
July 8th, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Hi Nigel
What a helpful website.
I run a smallish company making timber equestrian buildings. My wife has a 4×4 that she uses to tow a large horsebox for private use. I am considering buying a trailer to transport a 3.6m x 2.1m mobile horse shelter around to local horse shows for the organisers to use as a registration office for the shows. There will be no charge for the use of the building. The GTW will be in excess of 3500Kg. Will I need to fit a tachograph to the 4×4? If so it will probably make the whole thing too costly an exercise especially as it will only be 10-15 times per year. If I did need one would it make any difference if we restricted this to a 50Km radius of our premises?
July 19th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Hi Nigel
I sent following email to VOSA weeks ago and have never had an answer. I did ring and speak to them twice. Once, the girl I spoke to admitted she had no idea and the second time a different person was unaware exemptions existed….marvellous!!
So before we set fire to our trailer and give up, hopefully you may be able to clarify the situation. It amused me that VOSA also said they could not give legal advice but to consult caselaw or a lawyer. It sounded like..’we’re not telling you whether you’re legal or not, but we will relieve you of all your money when we inevitably pull you in..!!
Email to Vosa:
Hi
I work for a company who have one training/exhibition trailer. It gets used about 4 times a year in UK.
It is not used for carriage of goods for hire and reward but only to train dealers at their premises and trade shows. The trailer weighs about 1900Kg with a combined weight with vehicle of about 4000kg.
Due to the infrequent use the company were considering scrapping it as they do not believe the cost of tachographs, operating licences and so on are worth it as they are not hauliers and only have the one trailer.
However before they do this they asked me to check the exact requirements. Everyone online gives different advice and I am no expert. Does it come under EU or GB domestic and can the exemption for exhibitions/training I found below be used as it appears to fit the criteria for training/exhibition exactly as described..
mobile project vehicles – having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed/adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of
i. play/educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment
ii. articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary
Please can you advise in your opinion what requirements we need to satisfy. I have an HGV licence (C+E) and we have a vehicle with a GTW to pull this trailer but that’s about all we’re sure of.
Thanks for any guidance.
Chris Leggett
August 3rd, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Hi,
I work for a plant and tool hire company and we deliver equipment with landrover discovery’s. Do we need to fit tacho’s for the delivery of equipment on trailers? It is somethink i have been looking into for a while and cannot find an answer anywhere.
Thanks,
Mark
August 12th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Question 60 reply.
John,
Tell your boss that you will not drive illegally. You get fined, You will loose your entitlement to tow anything heavier than a hobby trailer even if like me you can tow up to 7500 kg gross train weight under “granddad’s rights and have not had to pass a seperate test. Get hime to put the instruction to you to drive illegally in writing so he cannot wiggle in court.
If he persists in telling you that you have to drive illegally you can tell him that he cannot force you and he cannot take disciplinary action against you for that refusal. Any employment tribunal will take a very dim view of an employer who disciplines an employee for failing to break the law. If he persists you could also ring the VOSA anonymous tip off line and tell them what is being demanded. Your Boss would be in deep, deep trouble with fines of up to £5000 and a really tedious and expensive investigation by VOSA and the HSE. He could also be called before the Traffic commissioners where he could be declared an unfit person to control this sort of vehicle operation.
Regards David
August 22nd, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Chris – Give me a call and I will let you have some definative answers.
Mark – You do need tachographs, but there may be an exemption. Call me.
David – You are correct.
August 23rd, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Hi. I have an 04 Vivaro SWB but I can’t find the plate on it to get the details. (I can find the VIN in two places, but no plate) So I have no idea what the GTW is. I have a tow hitch but I only tow a caravan with it. Am I right in thinking that if the caravan is only used for recreational purposes then I don’t need a tacho? On the other hand, If I tow the caravan for my wife’s business, and I receive no payment for that, then is it still within the rules? I am so confused.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:02 am
hi very good website lots of detail; i run a shogun 30 v6 and tow a brian james trailer max weight is 2600 720 empty. I buy and sell cars and collect them for myself are they still classing that as hire and reword when you sell the car on or is that wrong and if its a paying customer hope you can help as getting conflicting stories.
August 29th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Sean – You are definitely gaining commercially from the use of your trailer and you will come under tachograph regulations.
August 29th, 2011 at 11:40 am
Kelvin – If you tow the caravan to go on holiday then you are exempt from the regulations. If you tow it in connection with your wife’s business then you may need a tachograph.
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:25 am
we have know had to sell the trailer as they wanted £650+ vat to fit one to the shogun.so know we need to know about towing dollys were do we stand with the laws on them do they come under the sam laws or can we tow the dolly with a car.and also a frames.or is it that we will have to obtain a recovery truck.with thanks sean
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:13 am
Sean – I am sorry to be the bearer of more bad news, but the dolly (which I am assuming is the mounted unit on the tow-bar that holds the front wheels of the car you are towing) would still be classed as a trailer.
Using that device to fetch a car off a road like the motorway because it was broken down would be okay, but transporting like that would need a tachograph.
If you are looking at getting a recovery truck, I do know a lot of companies who could help you.
Nigel
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:49 am
Hi nigle
thanks for the email.were do we stand with an a frame on the back of a car.Why are they making it so difficault for people to make a living.please let me have the contacts of the companeies who can help we are on a limmited buget we dont want anything to dear as i only do this part time and work as well.with thanks sean
September 17th, 2011 at 6:43 am
Hi please help, i have just had a 5.5 ton iveco converted to a horsebox for work saddlefitting and pleasure . will also be towing a flat bed ifor trailer with my horse drawn carriage on again for pleasure . the iveco has a taco in it ! does this mean i have to use it? Am wellconfused thanks kaz
September 17th, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Hi Nigel, you advised a tree surgeon that he could tow up to 50km from base without a tacho but with the special rules for agriculture, horticulture, forestry and fishing the 50km rule extends to 100km as far as i’m aware. I cut grass 90km from base so hope i am correct !
If you take the time to clarify the situation could you please check if the 100km from base rule extends to operating 7.5t trucks without a tacho for ag, hort, etc or are we only limited to the 50 km rule like everyone else?
best wishes, mike.
September 18th, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Karen – If you are using it for work then you will need to comply with the regulations, if it is for pleasure then you do not. I have sent you an email directly to see if we can help you.
September 18th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Mike – your issue is a little complicated. Can you give me a call on 01623 675833 on Monday to discuss your specifics?
September 27th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Please could I have some advice, My driver was pulled over by the police today he was driving a slide bed recovery truck with a spec, He was loaded with two vehicles both broken down with engine faults. The lovely friendly police person explained that the vehicle on the spec was viewed as a trailor and should have a braking system linked to the recovery vehicles system upon braking !!! Are we dealing with an inept officer or are his points valid (that a car is viewed as a trailor when on a spec)or is he just confused by the law like the rest of us.
September 27th, 2011 at 5:43 pm
Dan – It is a trailer, but the officer sounds a little confused? If you want to call me I will be happy to discuss it with you.
October 1st, 2011 at 10:53 pm
hi nigel i have been reading your site. i was stoped last week with a a6 on the back of my transporter i was told by the vosa officer that i was over weight and that if i wanted to carry on transporting this size of car that i would need a trailer and a taco fitted he also said that i could put them on a trailer and tow with a car with no mention of a taco.one other thing he told me is that i could have a smaller car on the back and tow a bigger car on a trailer i was just wondering if all this was true and if you could tell me what you think would be the best way forward before i start getting a taco fitted and a trailer many thanks scott
October 3rd, 2011 at 4:52 pm
Hello there , I was wondering if , the permissable train weight was over 3.5 tonne but the actual train weight was under 3.5 tonnes , would a tachograph still be required ?
My actual train weight is only about 3 tonnes but the permissable is 4 tonnes .
October 3rd, 2011 at 6:37 pm
Scott – Your issue sounds a little more complicated than an answer here will justify. You appear to have both overloading and tachograph issues at the same time. I am happy to discuss it is you want to. Give me a call on 01623 675833
October 3rd, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Dave – The short answer is yes, unless you are exempt.
October 8th, 2011 at 10:24 am
Hi All,
Can some help me with this problem. I drive a Ford transit crew cab and when i have the men in, the weight of the vehicle is 3160kgs,
How much weight can i tow with out putting me over weight ?
Do i need to have a tacho fitted to vehicle?
Do i need to do a cpc course?
HELP!!!!
October 10th, 2011 at 7:57 am
Arthur – I can answer all of your questions, but I need a little more information than you have given me here. Please can you call me on 01623 675833.
Simply though, without a trailer your vehicle does not need a tacho. You don’t need a CPC for this vehicle.
October 14th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
Here is a good one for you.I do removals from U.K. to Spain using a 3.5 ton Iveco luton and trailer, the van is signwritten.
I was travelling unladen through a place near Benidorm, after dropping off some personal items to family members,when I was stopped by the guardia civil traffic police.
The reason they stopped me was because I was wearing a hands free device on my ear, and was informed they are not legal in Spain.
After they had checked my digital tacho, said it was not recording, (which it was), I had all my documents taken from me, drivers card, license and logbook, and told to wait until they came back.
I waited there at the side of the road unable to move for an hour, and then they returned and I had to follow them to the local police station where I was given a fine of 2001 Euros for not having an operators license.
The van and trailer were immobilised until the fine was paid in cash.
The trailer is an ifor williams ct177 with an unladen weight of 840 kilos
I know the law as being the following
3.5 ton van- same as a car
3.5 ton van and trailer- use of tacho required
3.5 ton van and trailer with an unladen weight of trailer less than 1020kilos- no operators license required
Both the van and the trailer were empty at the time of being stopped
I had to arrange for someone to bring the money to me, to pay the fine to have my van released, bearing in mind this was night time and the following day was a holiday so the banks were closed.
The point I am making is, as my van and trailer are legal in the country of registration, which is England, then surely I can only apply the laws of that country to my vehicle, otherwise does it follow that I also have to have a Spanish mot and tax etc on my vehicle.
I have 15 days to appeal this fine and am getting nowhere, so any help would be much appreciated, Thanks, Jake.
October 18th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Jake – It sounds like you got on the wrong side of a local officer. I think maybe you should appeal, but I need to check some facts first to confirm that is correct.
October 20th, 2011 at 11:54 am
Ok so I’m a little confused. I’m just starting up as a sole trader buying broken cars or cars with no MOT and stripping the parts to sell on. I’m an unfortunate soul who passed his licence after 1997 so need to take the B+E test so I can tow over 750kg. My question is this.. I’m looking at buying a car transporter trailer, roughly 500-750kg, and collecting cars upto around 1600kg. The car will be privately registered to myself, I will have no employees and will only be collecting the cars once I have purchased them (admittedly through the business). At most the trailer will be used once a week. I’m aware that for towing they advise that the towing weight is around 85% of the towing vehicles weight, although there is no law governing this. My understanding of all this is that if I were to use a towing vehicle of manufacturers listed kerb weight of around 1800kg I could only have a towed weight of 1700kg before needing a tacho, more than the 85% rule and less than I want to tow.. If I were to tow more than 1700kg or buy a heavier towing vehicle to be within the recommended 85% rule then I would need a tacho?
I would not be paid to collect or deliver any cars, they would be my property that I would be collecting and disposing of once finished with (at a local scrap yard). Cars would generally be within a 100 mile radius (not km).
Any help would be fantastic! Max.
October 22nd, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Hi Guys still trying to ake this all in, my transit has top wieght of 3.5 tonne normal running it has weight of 2 tonneIf i tow my trailer weight 1 ton tottal weight of 3 ton do i need a tacho, or do i need to take what the van could weigh when full and the trailer weight which is 2.8 plus 1 making 3.8 tonne,
If i drive to collect and have a tacho fitted does the vard need to be in or do i put it in when driving back from the pick up.
I was told the weight is what it can weigh not what it acually weighs that counts ????
October 22nd, 2011 at 6:45 pm
Hello Nigel, just stumbled on your website while trying to sort out rules/regs for towing. Ive just bought a vw 3.5 ton panel van and want to know if i need a tacho fitted to tow a 3.5 ifor williams. I used to own a 4×4 and towed the trailer before without a tacho as i was told it was not needed. The reason i now have the van is that it was a pain towing the trailer with small loads and having to sheet up stuff to keep it clean. I repair lawnmowers and garden machinery and also do the odd job for bowling clubs on site. Most of the time now, i will not need to use the trailer as pedestrian mowers will fit in the van, but on the very rare occasion say 4 or 5 times a year i may need to bring in a larger sit on machine. I think i may have done the wrong thing now buying the van if a tacho is required ???
October 23rd, 2011 at 7:40 pm
I got stopped by the Police on the A34 near Newbury in my LWB Vivaro towing an Ifor Williams BV126 which I had purchased from a company in Dorset 3 hours earlier and was on my way home to Derby. I was escorted to a VOSA weighing station and told I was being fined £200 for being overweight. I told him the trailer was purchased for motor crossing and I was returning home after just buying it. I had a full receipt fro the company. He told me that didn’t matter as I was in a commercial vehicle. I mentioned the 1020kg unladen trailer weight needing an operators licence if commercially driven to which I got back a blank confused stare. I told him to roll the dice and take his chances as I would see him in court everyday of the week and twice on Sunday’s. I explained that as I had a HGV class 1 and had been towing for over 20 years I knew exactly what law I fell under and he really should check this out before wasting Police money taking me to court. He went off to the on site office and made a call to a VOSA officer. 10 minutes later he came back and waved me goodbye.. Tosser!
This is why this stupid law is a stupid law
Scenario 1 Vivaro van,
Ifor Williams BV126 trailer (unladen weight 1160kg)
Delivering a parcel for hire or reward once a year to 1 mile away.
Tacho needed.
Operators licence needed.
Drivers hours to comply with.
Scenario 2 Vivaro van,
Ifor Williams BV126 trailer (unladen weight 1160kg)
Used privately for motorcross meetings every weekend and nationwide and any other private use.
NO tacho needed.
NO operators licence needed.
NO drivers hours to comply with.
Same van, same trailer and unlimited driving hours ?????
Please explain why we are part of the European Union again ???
November 13th, 2011 at 12:11 am
sounds like im going on the dole.drive a land rover 90 towing mini diggers to do excavation work ,machines weigh 1.5 t plus trailer weight plus landy.cant justify all the expense ,working for nothing as it is..
November 14th, 2011 at 8:59 am
Max – Yours is not as simple as you may think. Can you give me a call on 01623 675833 and I will talk you through it all.
November 14th, 2011 at 9:01 am
Gary – You do need a tachograph if you tow with that transit. However there are exemptions for certain uses e.g a builder transporting a digger for himself to drive. If you want any help please call me on 01623 675833.
November 14th, 2011 at 9:04 am
Derek – If I understand your business correctly you are working in the horticultural business sector, there is an exemption in this depending on exactly what you do. Please give me a call on 01623 675833 and I will talk you through it.
November 14th, 2011 at 9:05 am
Rich – It is highly likely that you are exempt for the tachograph legislation. Give me a call and I will explain it to you.
November 16th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Nigel I run a lawnmower business repairs and sales. I have a vaxhall vivaro swb van weights are
2770 kg
4770 kg
1450 kg
1550 kg
as the sticker on the door.
I also have a twin axle flat bed tralier weights are
3500 kg
1750 kg
1750 kg
as on the tralier plate
Yes I use the van and trailer to collect mowers to take back to my work shop for repair and deliver back. I do not go out of a 50km radius and I do not charge a fee for collection and delivery. please can you put me in the picture about the law and what I need. If I need a tachograph could I buy a smaller tralier to be with in the law to pull behind this van as lawn mowers are not heavy it is just the bulk of the machine
November 19th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
i run a small 1 man band garden machinery repair business , 16 yrs trading . my vehicle is a vauxhall vivaro 2.9t ton van . and i tow for bigger machines or bulk amounts of small machines a tandem ifor williams trailer. 2.5t ton gross . i very rairly over exceed the 3.5 gvw. dont charge for collection and delivery of machines . my van is insured to tow a trailer , all braked , lights, tyres etc legal. if i did for some reason over exceed the 3.5t gvw because the machine couldnt be broke down to smaller sections but my van train weight is 4990t gvw. i dont exceed a 50 k of my base . what is the law ?? i have a full licence held for over 37 yrs + hgv class 1 licence + national cpc , i havent been stopped by vosa yet regarding this but am a legal runner and would like to know the finer points , .. hope you can advise please .
November 19th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Hi, I have a Renault trafic LWB, that to tow a trailer I need a Tacho, even i f i am within 50Kms, the trailer is used for printing and displaying event photographs by my staff and myself. Now to get a tacho for a trafic is a nightmare no one in devon seems to be able to source one. If I get a Renault Espace (owned personally but used for business) will I still need a Tacho and are they available?
This all seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, by a government not knowing what they were doing! what is the difference between private and business use, when driving 5.5 Tonnes? it is the same weight with the same vehicles, is it just more red tape and a way of getting more indirect tax from us when we are hard pressed to make any money anyway?
November 20th, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Mr Cheesman – You do not need a tachograph as you are exempt. Give me a call on 01623 675833 and I will explain why.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
Kevin – You too are exempt if certain conditions are met. Give me a call on 01623 675833 and I can explain it to you.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
Ian – If you give me a call I will discuss your details and see what I can do to help you.
November 21st, 2011 at 9:45 pm
hi
i use a landrover for work and frequently tow a drilling rig to site at least twice a month, but the sites that i work are all within the 50km.Do i have to put my tacho card in?
and if not,do i still have to take rest periods?
this would be most helpfull as there is a bit of confussing with my boss just now
and he is talking about me getting repremanded.
thanks.
November 22nd, 2011 at 12:44 am
Gerry – If you operate the drilling rig that you are towing then no, within 50kms you would not need the tachograph card in or follow the regulations.
Would it help if your boss rang me to discuss it? If it would he is welcome to ring me.
November 22nd, 2011 at 9:19 am
Thanks for the reply. Exellent site!
December 2nd, 2011 at 6:06 pm
hi
i work for the electricity supply industry and do a 37 hour normal week plus overtime plus standby commitments which is normally 1 day in 6 on standby for 24 hour period .For a while now i`v been driving a LGV 4 wheel drive vehical most days using the digital tacho card but when i am on standby i refuse to drive the wagon because i say i dont undertand the rules completley and require more training and am not sure that if working overtime + standbys(whilst doing my normal job,not driving ) count towards my driving hours,also i`v been told that i am under domestic rules and they exempt.is this correct
any comments much appriciated
December 13th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Hi Nigel ,am currently operating my vehicle in out of scope mode, and recently worked 7 consecutive days , I now have been informed by my bosses that I cannot work the next 7. Is this correct?
December 20th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Recently I was involved with someone who had an accident with a trailer. The hirer, hired that person the trailer but the combined weight of the trailer and the car on the trailer exceeded what was permissable to tow with the car. The hirer saw the car being used for towing and still hired the person the trailer. The hire company has now billed the person with the repair costs for damage to the trailer. What duty of care does the hire company have and how should this be handled?
January 2nd, 2012 at 9:16 pm
Hi Nigel,please could you advise me as i belive the rules/laws have changed for towing trailers with regard to tacho and operaters license. i am currently looking at buying a l/r discovery 4 commercial to tow an Ifor Wiliams twin axle braked boxed trailer, with a mini drilling rig inside, and will be travelling nationwide.WEIGHTS:
discovery:2508kg trailer unladen:900kg
With drilling rig and equipment the combined weights will be within the discovery towing limits and the trailers weight limit, but over 3.5t.in total.
I have read/heard so many explanations would be good to get the facts, hope this is possible, many thanks.
January 3rd, 2012 at 9:29 am
Andrew – You are under Domestic Regulations, yes. You should however have some training as you are not exempt from the Driver CPC regulations. I suggest that your boss gives me a call 01623 675833 and I will explain it all to him in detail.
January 3rd, 2012 at 9:32 am
Tim – The hire company does have some duty of care to advise it’s customers, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the person driving the vehicle.
Sorry.
January 3rd, 2012 at 9:34 am
Steve – There has been a recent rule change and we at Fleet Risk Consultants are still deciding on what the changes actually mean as the legislation is not entirely clear.
One interpretation would mean all trailers referred to in this article would need an operators licence and the other interpretation says not.
Once we have determined OUR interpretation I shall share it here!
January 3rd, 2012 at 10:58 am
Nigel,
Many thanks, look forward to the update, much appreciated.
January 9th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Hi all,
I just rang VOSA for some clarity over the effects of the operator licencing rule changes from 4/12/2011 that did away with the small trailer, below 1050 kg, exemption.
In the new regulations there is an exemption from operator licencing for 4×4 and dual purpose vehicles that tow trailers where the gross permitted mass of the vehicle and trailer combination exceed 3500 kg which is when the tow vehicle has to have a tacho fitted and used when towing.
Under the previous Operator licencing regime the train weight calculation ignored the weight of the unloaded trailer when calculating the weight of the combination for operator licencing purposes. This meant that all sorts of vans, typically transits , sprinters and renault masters, pickup trucks with just two seats etc as well as 4×4 and dual purpose vehicles were exempt BUT this exemption hits at a vital area.
The only exemptions in teh new regs are for 4×4 and dual purpose vehioles.
That means that white van man towing a trailer of the “Ifor williams” commercial variety where the van needs a tacho fitted, is no longer exempt from operator licencing.
Good luck to all those towing with a white van because Operator licencing regs are a right pain in all the tender places including the wallet.
VOSA will be rubbing their hands in glee just thinking about all the extra fines and prohibitions they will be doleing out to White Van man who carries on towing at tacho required weights without an operator licence.
Happy New year White Van Men
David Green
January 9th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
David – Thank you for your post.
Just a note of caution as we are still considering the interpretation of the legislations and what VOSA have told you may not be correct.
I will post the detail when we have finished discussing it with our teams of solicitors we work with.
Nigel
January 15th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Hi Nigel,
I find it strange that VOSA cosider that I may not be correct as they have just written to me confirming my interpretation as expressed in my earlier post.
However VOSA were talking about carrying just my own goods as part of my non-transport based business activities and they emphasise that it is the VOSA view which may not necessarily be that of a court of law.. DOH!!!
Here is the VOSA reply in full
Dear Mr Green
Thank you for your email.
It is highly unlikely that the operationdefined in your email of 9 January 2012 requires a goods vehicle operator’slicence.
Generally speaking you require a goods vehicleoperator’s licence if you use a vehicle with a gross plated weight exceeding3500 kgs for the carriage of goods for hire or reward or for use in connectionwith a business. If the gross weight of the vehicle is less than 3,500kgsyou do not require an operator’s licence unless you are using a combinationi.e. a vehicle and a trailer. If using a combination then the key factorsare the unladen weight of the trailer and whose goods you are carrying.
If carrying goods for hire or rewardyou add the “unladen” weight of the trailer to the grossplated weight of the vehicle and if the combination exceeds 3500kgs you will need an operator’s licence. If you are carrying only your own goods you will not require a licence if using a vehicle and trailer where the vehicle is less than 3500kgs gross plated weight and the trailer is less then 1020kgs unladen.
Notwithstanding the above there is also anexemption from goods vehicle operator licensing for “Dual purposevehicles” which are exempt under Schedule 3 (2) of the Goods Vehicles(Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995. The full description of a “dualpurpose vehicle” can be found in Regulation 3 of the Road Vehicles(Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. It includes 4x4s – like Land Rovers and their equivalents ((((( This includes my Daihatsu fourtraks and Nissan Navarra and states:)))))
“a vehicle constructed or adapted for\the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description,being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either-
(i) is so constructed or adapted thatthe driving power of the engine is, or by appropriate use of the controlsof the vehicle can be, transmitted to all of the wheels of the vehicle;or
(ii) satisfies the following conditionsas to construction, namely –
the vehicle must be permanently fittedwith a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
the area of the vehicle to the rear ofthe driver’s seat must –
(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengersand those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or thefloor of the vehicle; and
(ii) be lit on each side and at the rearby a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having anarea or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on eachside and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c) the distance between the rearmostpart of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in the head (i) of sub-paragraph(b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance betweenthe rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmostsuch row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than onethird of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel andthe rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.”
To qualify as a “dual purpose vehicle”any vehicle must meet the requirements above. If the vehicle you are thinking of buying does meet the requirements above then it will be exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing. I would however pay particularly attentionto the 2040 kgs unladen weight as some vehicles now weigh more than this although you still would not require a licence if carrying your own goods unless the trailer used exceeds 1020kgs unladen.
I have attached a document regarding therecent changes regarding small trailers which may be of interest.
I must emphasise that this is the view of this Department based upon the information provided and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation.
END OF VOSA SPEAK
If you can pick your way through that lot of legaleese then you may agree with the way I read it. Any 4×4 with an unladen weight of less than 2400 Kgs when used for hire or reward with a small trailer (less than 1050 Kg unladen) for the carriage of goods including tools and equipment for use in the vehicle owner’s business is exempt from Operator licence and likewise any dual purpose vehicle meeting the specification given, is exempt from operator licencing.
This seems to leave white van man who is neither a 4×4 nor a dual purpose vehicle even when towing a trailer ( load or burden includes towable machinery such as compressors, water jetters and wood chippers) for hire and reward even if that equipment is for use in the van owner’s business,as requiring an operators licence if the trailer is over 1050kg unladen. Some big towable compressors could easily exceed that unladen weight
Damn regulations are so complex and obscure that nobody can be certain they are operating legally until some poor mug gets hauled through the courts to establish a precedent that will finally nail down what this is all about.
Sorry about the length of this post.
David Green
January 19th, 2012 at 12:46 am
Hi Nigel.Great site, I have a question,I have a 04/04/06 registered navara which I need to tow a trailer I know I need a tacho but because the nav is registered before 01/05/06 can I fit an analogue tacho. I have been told that if I fit one now it has to be digital but if it was fitted from new an analogue wwould do.if I fitted an anologue how would they know it wasn’t fitted from new
thanks Steve
January 19th, 2012 at 10:10 am
Steve – The tachograph has to be fitted by an approved calibration agent. They will fit a digital, because of the legislation, but I personally think that digital units are so much easier to use.
It also has a certificate of fit and calibration so they would know when and where it was fitted.
Best Regards
Nigel
January 19th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Hi Nigel – great site full of good advice – i have a question if i may, regarding digitasl tacho cards and their use whilst not towing. we are being told by the company that does our tacho analysis that once we have inserted our card (whilst towing) we then have to leave the card in for the rest of the day,recording breaks etc, even though we deliver and drop off the trailer – our vans etc are all below 3500kg so we should – i believe – be able to put them to out of scope as we are not driving hgv’s. My argument being that if we drive back to base with the tacho card in – and we go on the motorway and do 70mph – the tacho will record this as overspeed and we have no other official way of showing that we werent in fact towing but driving back to base. Can you clarify this for me please – do we have to leave a card in once in serted for the rest of the working day? Kind regards JP
January 20th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Hi -
I have a vivaro lwb with a 1 ton payload and an ifor 126bv box trailer 3500kg
The van is insured for private use and I will be delviering building materials to our house in France. So do I need a tach as this is not for reward or hire and what weight can I carry on the trailer and in the van ? Trailer unladen weight is 1130 kg.
Regards
Kev
January 22nd, 2012 at 12:35 am
hi there i wonder if u can help me with some information i have been told they have changed the rules on car trailors is this true i have a 4 wheel trailor to carry my race car on at weekends ive been told they now have to braked on all wheels and have to be plated my trailor has no plate on it will i be able to use it behind my for transit van this year or how do i go about getting it plated to use many thanks nick my contact no 07528335462
January 22nd, 2012 at 10:52 am
Hi Guys very good site, may i ask a question plse. i hope to start a mini digger and driver buisness soon, so will need to tow trailer and digger machine no more that 2.5 ton proberly behind a pick up ranger or similar , i aim to work within 50 km of home will i need a tacho??
many thanks for the blog
Terry
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:05 am
JP – Your analysis people are correct. Once you have t inserted the chart for the day, you must leave it in the unit until the end of the day. I suggest that you keep some manual records for yourself so you can explain and ‘alleged’ overspeeding.
Nigel
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:07 am
Kev – As you are using the vehicle and trailer for private use, I am assuming it is your place and not a rental property, then you do not need a tachograph. I suggest you have some written details just in case you get stopped so it is easier to explain to VOSA, the Police or the French authorities.
Nigel
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:07 am
Nick – I will call you so I can understand your question better before I answer it.
Nigel
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:09 am
Terry – If you are going to drive the digger when you get to site and you stay inside the 50km radius, then you would not need a tachograph.
Give me a call on 01623 675833 and I will explain how we can help you with that.
Nigel
January 23rd, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Nigel – thanks very much for the advice JP
January 25th, 2012 at 9:32 pm
thanks for the heads up Nigel i’ll ring soon
January 25th, 2012 at 11:26 pm
Hi Nigel. Great forum. If a caravan dealer uses Boxer vans to deliver caravans nationwide, do the vans need tacho’s fitted? The Boxer weighs in at 2200kg plus 1100kg payload and a maximum tow of 2500kg. The heaviest caravan is about 1850kg with a MTLPM of 2100kg. Your opinion would be appreciated, thanks.
January 26th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Hi Nigel,
I tow portable toilet trailers that are hired for events. The gross weight of the largest ones is 3500kg. I use a Land rover defender and I am currently having a tacho fitted as I believe this is required now whilst towing for hire or reward. This vehicle is also my private vehicle for much of the time as I am self employed. If I deliver a loo to a site and then drive away (with no trailer) I presume I am outside of the regs once the trailer is removed. If I leave the driver card in (which I believe you are supposed to do) then this subsequent driving will be recorded on that card. Do I have to stop for the required breaks when not towing? e.g. 4hr towing followed by unhtich trailer and then period of 1 or 2 hours driving (but without long enough continuous breaks to meet regs) is that ok?
Does it make a difference if the driving whilst NOT towing is for my own private use (not related to business – eg. driving to leisure centre to go for a swim or go shopping etc..)? or does the fact that I’m not towing mean that I can drive for as long as I like anyway because I’m out of scope of the regs at these times even if I’m still working for myself?
February 3rd, 2012 at 5:43 pm
Johnathon
I’ll attempt to answer your rather complex questions.
1) Drive commercially with trailer over 3.5 tonnes GPM for the train then Tacho must be used.
2)Drop off the trailer and drive commercially then you should leave the tacho card in when it will record driving which is actually an incorrect record of your activity. Remember that tachos are designed for BIG vehicles that can never be driven without a tacho being used. Our lightweight towing vehicles can be driven without trailer and without tacho. The commercial driving without the trailer is classed as duty hours but it is impossible to set the digital tacho to duty hours because the instant the vehicle moves it goes to driving hours. Solution, take a printout and write a full explanation on the rear.
3) Drop of the trailer and continue to drive the tow vehicle for social domestic and pleasure purposes. You should end your shift when you cease to drive commercially, remove the tacho card and make a note that you were driving for social domestic and pleasure purposes. While this is not required by law, it is worth the tiny amount of time and trouble for the look that comes over VOSA man’s face when he realises he can’t do you for excess driving hours! Watch out when going home as this incurs duty hours even if you are off duty when leaving the trailer but to tour next door neighbour’s house does not.
Stupid rules or what?
4) You can never drive as long as you like when working for yourself because you are on duty. Limit is then UK regs. Drive as long as you like for social domestic and pleasure.
5)You have to stop for 45 minutes after 4.5 hours of accumulated driving time if under tacho regs and if not then you must take a break after 6 hours duty time whether driving commercially under tacho regs or not this is the requirement under the Transport Working Time Directive.
In all cases common sense says take a break after about 4.5 hours whether driving commercially or not because killing somebody by falling asleep at the wheel is enough to get you banged up for manslaughter if you survive the inevitable crash.
regards
David G
February 3rd, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Thanks David, That’s really helpful. Brilliant advice. And yes I totally agree about stopping for long drives. it’s just that i prefer to stop for say 4 times at 15 mins each to break journey rather than one or two longer breaks.
Just one last thing. As I understand it, the EU regs state that a driver should take a weekly rest where no driving is done in a day every week (obviously!) but is that irrespective of the daily hours driven(towing in my case)?
For example, if I tow for say just 2 hours or less each day (under EU regs) for lets say 15 days in a row, is that illegal? I realise you can take a reduced weekly rest etc… occasionally but is the weekly rest requirement completely unrelated to the total number of hours driven?
thanks again,
Jonathan.
February 4th, 2012 at 10:37 am
Hi Johnathon,
I do not know where you got to understand that the EU regs relate weekly rest to driving each day of the week. Nothing I have read in the regs makes this correlation.
The regs do, when taken to extreme, demand that if you drive within the regs on only 1 minute of the week you must account for any time before that 1 minute of driving right back to the end of your last weekly rest period.
Remember that the regs were written with HGV drivers in mind and are rather ill fitting when it comes to small tow vehicles, occasional towing within the regs etc. etc.
Sorry but you really cannot pick and choose how you take rests when driving within the rges because you would need to know all the complex regs inside, outside and backwards to avoid being “at risk of being illegal” under one or other obscure VOSA interpretation of the regulations or a whole raft of interpretations by learned judges who have established extensive case law. This stuff is a whole specialist area of the law that requires years of study and constant study to master. Our hosts at Fleet Risk consultants make a living doing exactly that sort of intense study and even they have to take time out and seek advice occassionally, see post 115!
It is probably safer and definitely easier for you if you get into the 15 minute and then 30 minute rest patter as required when using the tacho. However in a combined driving and other work day where driving is less than a cumulative 4.5 hours you can take rest as and when you wish until you have done 6 hours when you must take a break under the Transport working Time Directive.
Trouble is “elf and safety” are getting involved and they recommend 15 minutes break after just 2 hours. If you or worse your employees, if you have any, were to get into a smash and the rest pattern was not at least close to the ideal as, for example the rest pattern under tacho rules, then you could be in breach of “elf and safety” rules as while driving commercially the cab is classed as a workplace.
The driving every day bit does not meet the requirement for 45 hours continuous uniterrupted weekly rest or the reduced rest either. If driving commercially for a couple of hours you are presumably doing something else for at least some of the rest of the day and so be building up duty hours. Your duty hour limit is 60 hours under the Transport Working Time Directive so be very careful to keep good records.
Regards
David Green
February 4th, 2012 at 11:43 am
Steve – You do need a tachograph.
February 6th, 2012 at 10:15 am
Hi Re in “David Green Says: on January 9th, 2012 at 12:35 pm”
……email from VOSA gives 4×4 max weight as 2040 kg .but in his comments after states 2400kg………Can Nigel or David tell me which is correct?
Also,
I have a one man band small car repair business normally buying non runners then rebuilding and selling (classics) and currently for cash flow purposes am repairing cars for customers. I have premises and a garage insurance policy and use my ’97 Disco 300 and CT177 trailer (864kg unladen)to collect cars for both purposes and deliver back to customers. 90% are within 50 k, but not all. The disco is a 7 seater, not sign written or with beacons. I’d like to do both as sometimes I collect breakdowns from roadside and would like some free advertising too. What do I need to do to comply with current VOSA regs, would I be better not fitting beacons and signwriting it (thinking 24 hour recovery as well as business name)and is there any difference in the law’s eyes between the two uses -buying to rebuild or customer repairs.
Excellent site, many thanks, much needed by us lawbreakers.I got prosecuted years ago for towing a friends racer on trailer behind my 7.5 tonner, (gtw over my license allowance even though private use etc. I’d rung swansea and local plod -each referred me to the other when i asked about that and tachographs). Solicitor charged fee for research, said not guilty but changed his mind on day before hearing, judges conferred and said “I didn’t know that did you -no?)” but said IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE,! However no points and min fine.
February 6th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Thanks. I thought so, management told me otherwise. Keep up the good work. Steve.
February 7th, 2012 at 9:03 am
Bob – The “Unladen” weight of a dual purpose vehicle must not exceed 2040kg.
Also Recovery is a specific exemption, but ONLY for collection non-runners from the roadside, rather than just moving them around. Based on what you have written here I am inclined to suggest you fit a tachograph to the discovery.
But feel free to call me on 01623 675833 so i can get more detail from you.
Nigel
February 7th, 2012 at 9:04 am
Steve – If your management need any clarification, please get them to call me on 016213 675833.
February 7th, 2012 at 11:25 am
Hi, great site! I have a question. I have a 2008 VW T5 kombi. 2 seperate seats in front, a row of seats behind and windows behind. I bought it new through my company and is registered to my company but I insure it privately as its not used for commercial purposes, but still has VAT benefits.
I have just started to do the odd job transporting boats on a new boat trailer and was wondering whether claiming that the boats were mine or whether I was helping a freind out FOC would cut it if I got pulled.
I have had a class 1 HGV since 1985 so my licence entitlement isnt an issue, but I am now concerned about my position with regards the motor. The weights on the spec sheet for this kombi are: GVW 3000, axles 1575 & 1550, trailer weight braked 2500, u/braked 750, GTW 5200, U/W 2000, payload 1000.
Whats my position?
Thanks, Paul
February 7th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Thanks for help Nigel will be back in touch.One thing for other drivers, not many 4×4′s under 2040kg eligible for “dual purpose” .My 300tdi is listed at 2150 I think. My defender 90 doesn’t suit the seating requirements even though a 7 seater station wagon, My 110 is definitely too heavy and it’s a tipper /pickup
So fourtack and navarra etc owners need look at their weights??
Bob
February 8th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Hi All,
Sorry for the dyslexic fingers when typing, You will notice that I frequently put teh when I mean the and the 2040 / 2400 confusion is just mistyping. 2040 kg it is. My Navarra meats both criteria as it is also a 4×4!.
Regards
David
February 14th, 2012 at 9:31 pm
My disco doesn’t, 2141 kg on carte gris’
Nigel, can you tell me if the last paragraph on this ntta link http://www.ntta.co.uk/news/news_details.aspx?NewsID=17 “vosa giving six months grace to allow drivers to catch up with new regs” is valid.
Did you receive my direct email and weren’t you going to let me know some information on recovery regulations’
Did you look at the eucaris site?
Bob
http://www.ntta.co.uk/news/news_details.aspx?NewsID=17
February 14th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Dave Green, does your unladen include the tank full of juice and 75kg for a driver cos I think eu regs have to ? anyone know??
February 15th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Hi
Maximum Laden weight includes all weight including driver passenger fuel, everything on the wheels so unladen logically means with only the weight of the vehicle itself on the as marked on the manufacturer’s plate. The weight of teh fuel is just more load.
Regards
David Green
February 15th, 2012 at 11:15 pm
didn’t think we were talking of logic Dave and I won’t argue but my memory plays tricks due to the onset of senility so my wife tells me but I feel sure that I have read that it’s + the aforementioned fuel and 75kg driver allowance is what they go by. I’ll go through my searches and try and re discover the facts but there can’t be just us two on this, someone out there must know?
Bob.
February 16th, 2012 at 12:37 am
found it and I was wrong it was a reference to MIRO, mass in running order not unladen weight from a while ago when i was researching motorhome regs.
Bob
February 16th, 2012 at 12:42 am
“My defender 90 doesn’t suit the seating requirements even though a 7 seater” I said and I got that wrong too apparently, trouble with reading blogs at 00:37 hours etc, perhaps need a tacho on the pc.
bob
February 16th, 2012 at 10:00 am
Hi Guys, I am really pleased with the interaction developing here, Thank you all.
Looking at the Unladen Weight question, here is the legal definition:
Unladen Weight – the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts(the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with thevehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.
It is also worth noting that it excludes the weight of the driver and crew too.
If you have any doubts call me on 01623 675833
Nigel
February 16th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Paul – With regard to your Kombi, you do need a tachograph and you may also need an operators licence. Can you give me a call on 01623 675833 so I can check your details first?
Nigel
February 18th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Hello – I have read the entire list of comments and it has explained many things and also created much new confusion by my no longer being so ignorant – anyway, all of the info is MUCH appreciated, please can someone consider my situation and offer any advice if anyone has any -
I have a seasonal business hiring yurts out which involves lots of driving – the problem with the tents is that they are HEAVY and i need to work out the max weight i can legally drive and tow and then work within that.
I am one of those unfortunate people who passed their test after jan ’97 and so am limited to a 3.5 ton vehicle and 750kg MAM unbraked trailer. I have a dodge 50 unladen weight 2400kg, gross weight 5600kg, max train wt 7500kg fitted with old style taco (hooray). Even if i passed the LGV test, i would need a restricted operators license to drive one small lorry of my own goods without the need for a CPC, however even this is going to involve huge costs and so i have decided to go down a different route for now (i would also not be able to tow with my class 2 license anyway).
I now plan to take my trailer towing B + E test. I also plan to down grade the DODGE to 3.5 ton to enable me to drive it legally, and also use its good towing capabilities. Any ideas of what the down graded train weight would be? It should tow a decent trailer, and as long as that trailer is less than 1040 kg unladen then am i right in saying that i could drive the lorry and trailer commercially without the need for an operators license as long as i had the towing license and used the taco? (I plan to convert the box on the dodge into a live-in camper anyway (hence not carrying great loads) and plan to tow an ifor williams trailer or similar full of my yurts (keeping within the new train weight of the vehicle)).
I also have a 12ft 4 berth shower trailer – will i need an operators license to move this around?? I am considering getting a 4×4 to move it as i need to position it in muddy fields etc. Presumably i should look for one with a taco?? These are like hen’s teeth though?? Also, will it require an operators license considering that the trailer prob exceeds the 1040kg unladen weight etc under the new rules (since dec 2011)???
It looks to me that they are trying to make everyone have an operators license – trailer licenses don’t actually seem to entitle you to tow much more anyway since the rules have changed again. Maybe in the long run i would be better off trying to get an operators license and HGV license – a restricted one at that as i can’t see myself ever being able to have other people’s gear on board as CPC’s are expensive and not really an option, and how could i ever employ a fleet manager etc when i am basically a one man band anyway, trying to drive only a 5.6 ton lorry??
If i can drive my down graded lorry with a trailer without op license on a B+E trailer test, then i would definitely go ahead – would you say that this is the best option?? it is sad to think that even with the towing test my transit tower will be almost obselete due to it not being a dual purpose vehicle. Obviously a fleet of transits with roof racks would be the best option with them all towing 750kg trailers? Problem is a 750kg trailer can’t carry hardly anything… Any suggestions advice ideas welcome, apologies for the long post, keep up the good work Nigel,
Fred
February 19th, 2012 at 9:59 am
Hi Fred,
A long post in reply to a long post! I hope it answers your questions despite wandering off somewhat at the end.
First my usual reminder that this post is NOT legal advice just my interpretation of the rules. For legal certainty, if such a state actually exists, you need to pay a shed load of money to a specialist solicitor whose advice will then be ” limited to the best of his knowledge”!
As I understand your situation you do not carry anyone’s goods except your own. If this is correct then this reduces the chances that you will need an operator’s licence.
Your proposed 4×4 will need a tacho and that will cost about £1400 to fit a digital tacho Digital tachos also require driver and company cards and downloading kit so you can store the records on a computer. Software to examine the data comes extra. Expect to pay up to £500 for all this extra stuff.
If you buy an oldie 4×4 pre 2006 then you can still fit an analogue tachograph at a total cost of about £800. You may have to buy a replacement cover for the diferential to allow the tacho sensor to be fitted. Nissan robbed me of £275 for the required cover for my Navara!
4×4′s are still exempt from operator licencing even after Dec 2011 changes.
4×4 are great on muddy fields on their own (with the right tyres that is) but heavy trailers of the Ifor Wlliams type easily bog down to their axles and even the best 4×4 (landcruiser VX 3 litre auto) will simply spin its wheels if trying to tow a really bogged down heavy trailer. I speak from bitter experience when I say that if you bog down an Ifor Williams trailer to its axles with 3 tonnes on board you will need a bloody great tractor to pull it out.
You are right when you say a 750 Kg trailer carries very little. An Ifor Williams type trailer has an unladen weight of about 660 Kg so its effective load is just 440 kg before it and your Dodge would be over 3.5 tonnes. If you plan on towing an Ifor Williams type you will need to get the heavy trailer test done and dusted to give you the B+E capability whichever way you choose to go. B+E allows you to drive way more than the 7.5 tonnes gross weight that I can drive under my pre 1997 grandads rights. You need to check with the driving standards agency although it will be on your new licence. I think the limit is 12.5 tonnes and there is no way that you will get anywhere near 12.5 tonnes train weight with a tow vehicle of less than 3.5 tonnes unladen.
The HGV licence requirement comes with a vehicle that is over 3.5 tonnes unladen so if you choose a lorry over 3.5 tonnes unladen it is going to mean you need an HGV licence and also an operators licence complete with a registered and approved operating base which probably requires planning permission as well!
Your Dodge weighs 2400kg unladen, downrating its maximum weight does not affect its unladen weight so does not affect whether you need an HGV licence or not. You can drive your Dodge quite legally without HGV because it’s unladen weight is less than 3.5 tonnes.
Be careful if you convert the Dodge into a ” motorhome” because all the fixtures and fittings required will add to the Unladen weight. If you should exceed 3.5 tonnes there will be a question as to whether the Dodge is now an HGV and in any case as the Dodge itself gets heavier there is less of the train weight available for payload.
CPC applies only to professional drivers. If you are employed as a driver on your contract of employment then you need CPC ref: Amy at the DSA.
In any event CPC minimum training is one 7 hour course each year and it is not as you claim “very expensive” see the NOVADATA site where the cost per person per course in Feb 2012 is just £87.00. To put this cost in perspective it is about half the price of a large latte per week for a year or the price of just over 50 litres of diesel!
Novodata have just put two of my men through a course even though those men are not professional drivers and so do not legally require CPC. Why pay for what is not legally demanded? Easy: The men can no longer claim to be ignorant of the regulations and it proves that I as their employer have taken very positive steps to ensure my employees understand the Tachograph regulations.
You are already using an analogue tacho with your vehicle and so you are legally required to keep detailed records.
You should already have put a good maintenance program in place with records of what maintenance was done and when for your vehicle and trailer, if not why not?
Good maintenance saves you serious money.
Maintaining your vehicle in a roadworthy condition makes good sense as you and other drivers will be safer, the vehicle will last longer, be more reliable and you will not get pulled and prohibited by VOSA or the Old Bill. The expense of just one failed VOSA stop will pay the maintenance costs for at least a year!
I do not know about you but I simply do not want to even speculate about the dreadful consequences for me, my drivers and other road users of a major failure of the vehicles, loads and trailers that I routinely run at 60 MPH on our crowded roads.
So why do you suddenly need a transport manager to do all these things for you?
You already have a transport manager in everything but name: YOU.
Just remember that with HSE and VOSA you are GUILTY until you prove yourself innocent!
In my previous posts I have suggested using a page a day diary for Tachograph and Transport Working time directive records (it also makes a great place to store any printouts from the digital tacho). Just writing in your diary that you had a new tyre or the brakes checked on vehicle reg xyz 123 for instance is no big deal.
You could record your daily walk round checks in a formal way. You do not have to do so by law with your Dodge or a 4×4 but it makes sense to spend just a few minutes looking around the vehicle before taking to the road just to avoid the possibility of wasting many hours when you inevitably get pulled by VOSA or the Old Bill for something stupid like a missing light lens or a brake light that does not work. Believe me you do not want to give VOSA men a silly excuse for pulling you over and then minutely checking the vehicle and the tachograph records.
I run Ifor Williams trailers with heavy loads over long distances every year. Great trailers but they take a real pounding so just for my peace of mind I get them thoroughly checked by the local IFOR dealer every year. The dealer gives me a letter stating that the trailer was checked on that date and found to be in roadworthy condition. This is not legally required but it costs very little to do and is another bit of armour to use to fend of the VOSA and H&S mafia who are out to nail my hide to the wall for any infringements.
The H&S regulations, Tachograph regulations, driving hours and traffic laws are there and have to be dealt with as part of normal business activity just like PAYE, NI, VAT, and Accounts. We all have to live with this unpaid and tedious time consuming crap but we knew or should have known that when we set up our businesses. This stuff is as much part of the costs of running a small business as the cost of fuel, wages, business rates or rents.
Regards
David Green
February 19th, 2012 at 11:43 am
Fred – It would probably be better if I spoke to you on the phone just to clarify a couple of items, but in general I would give you the following advice:
With your current Dodge you would need a ‘Restricted’ operators licence, which would not require you to have an ‘operators’ CPC, and may not incur too high a set of costs, but we can discuss that.
You mentioned a Class 2 licence, which does not exist. I am assuming you mean C1, which would allow you to drive a vehicle up-to 7,500kb GVM and tow a 750kg trailer. C1+E would allow the bigger trailer behind the Dodge at 5,600kg GVM.
We can discuss the down rating of the Dodge as it is not as simple as it sounds.
With your shower unit I suggest you get it weighed so we know what we are dealing with.
You can fit a tachograph to most of the 4×4′s on the market now so buying one with one fitted already is not necessary. With what you do you wont need an operators licence for the trailer if it is sub 1020kgs Unladen.
My best suggestion is give me a call 01623 675833 and we can discuss it in detail.
Nigel
February 19th, 2012 at 11:54 am
David – It is a long post, and thank you for posting. I have a couple of observations on it.
We retain a team of transport lawyers who also prosecute for VOSA, so we can so a bit better than “to the best of our knowledge”.
Not all 4×4 are exempt as ‘Dual-purpose’ vehicles, you still need to check.
The C1 and C licence (HGV) are not based on Unladen weight, but on permissible weight, so a Ford Transit GVM 3,500 kg is Class B and a Ford Transit GVM 4,600kg is Class C1, both have a Unladen weight below 3,500kg.
So Fred cannot drive his Dodge on a B licence he needs a C1.
The exemptions from driver CPC are very limited and in essence if you drive a C, C1, D or D1 vehicle as part of your job, you need to undertake CPC training. I have a company we use for such training which is European Driver Training Ltd, rather than Novodata. But it is personal choice.
One other thing even the HSE and VOSA cannot change the basic rule of law of Innocent until proven guilty, but that is what I do for my clients.
Regards
Nigel
February 20th, 2012 at 6:39 am
Hi all,
Nigel, Here we go again even the Driving Standards Agency whoi are responsible for CFC matters not the incompetent and inefficient DVLA does not seem to know when CPC is or is not required. I deliberately wrote and asked specifically if my operation’s occassional drivers needed CPC and the answer in writing was a firm NO provided that my employees are not declared as drivers on tehir contract of employment. Now you say different. So where does that leave me except confused?
Just to clear up the messy licence entitlement bits of my previous post wher eI was clearly wrong.
Here is the direct link from the government list of all vehicles and the licences required for them including licences issued both before and after January 1997
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_067672.pdf
Of course you are legally innocent until proved guilty but VOSA assume that you are guilty, treat you as though you are guilty, interview you under caution etc etc and will issue penalties and prohibitions unless you carry sufficient documentary proof that you are compliant with the regulations. Being compliant means innocent of any wrong doing!
If you have ever been investigated by the HSE then you sure as hell are assumed guilty until you can prove by the submission of copious documentary evidence that you are innocent.
I have some harsh experience of VOSA stops where some staff have behaved like officious little Hitlers and where some were just plain ignorant of the regulations they were supposed to enforce. I now feel that I have to carry the guidance issued by VOSA GVG 262-3 in my cab to “educate” supposedly professional VOSA men. See my posts on Pitchcare .com under the pseudonym “grumpy old git”
I have been served with a threat of prohibition for an unsafe load where the “unsafe” items were 60 big drill bits held into 60 individual chucks secured on a specialist turf aeration drilling machine where each drill is secured by two large bolts and those same drills were subsequently in constant use for 4 days without ever dropping even 1 drill out. The 1.2 tonne drilling machine was secured to the trailer bed by half a dozen 5 tonne ratchet straps and a tensioned steel wire all in first class condition and all with 5 tonne breaking strains. Mr VOSA non-engineer threatened to serve a prohibition notice stopping me from proceding on my way until he got an engineer to site.
The fact that I had completely stripped and rebuilt this machinery just months earlier, had photos on my company laptop that I had with me to prove it and that I am and have been the engineer for my small company for many years counted for nothing at all. The specialist engineer, when he arrived several hours later, released me about two minutes after he saw how the drills were fixed. Apology from VOSA man? Now don’t be daft. Right to compensation for being unjustly detained and delayed on my journey so making me very late arriving with my customers on site in a completely safe and legal vehicle with a completely safe load? You are having a laugh!
I also got into a heavy argument because there was very little data on my digicard. Why was there no data on the card? Because I had not been driving much in the previous 28
days and so had not generated any records. Why had I no tacho charts? well I have two analogue tacho equipped vehicles registered to my company but I had not driven them for many weeks. Could I satisfy VOSA man, well eventually and extremely reluctantly on his part and then only with the help of my working diary could I substantiate that I had been doing other things. That diary is good enough as evidence in a court of law as a diary kept as part of my employment but it is not a permissible substitute for scribblings on the reverse of either a tacho chart or a digital printout.
No Apology then either just a gruding ill mannered instruction to “Get on your way.”
Have I complained to VOSA: Yes with what result? Absolute denial that the incidents ever took place until I came up with the tracker data for the vehicle, the officers names and numbers and the photos and audio recording that I now make on my mobile telephone as a matter of course at each stop!
Thank God for modern mobile phones and satellite tracking devices.
So innocent until proved guilty when you get to court but Guilty until proved innocent when stopped at the roadside.
Regards
David Green
February 20th, 2012 at 8:25 am
Hi,
Info about CPC exemptions from the business link web site
Driver CPC: the basics
Exemptions from Driver CPC requirements
The requirement to hold a DQC or undertake CPC periodic training does not apply to drivers of a vehicle that:
has a maximum authorised speed not exceeding 45 kilometres per hour
is used by, or under the control of, the armed forces, civil defence, the fire service and forces responsible for maintaining public order
is undergoing road tests for technical development, repair or maintenance purposes, or is a new or rebuilt vehicle which has not yet been put into service
is used in states of emergency or assigned to rescue missions
is driven in the course of driving lessons for any person wishing to obtain a driving licence or a Driver CP
is used for non-commercial carriage of passengers or goods, for personal use
Carries material or equipment to be used by the driver in the course of his or her work, provided that driving the vehicle is not the driver’s principal activity
The last clause “Carries material or equipment to be used by the driver in the course of his or her work, provided that driving the vehicle is not the driver’s principal activity” exactly covers my operations and so the Driving Standards Agency were correct in their interpretation.
Regards
David Green
February 26th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Hi, very informative site !
I have just stumbled across this issue of tachographs on 4×4′s.
We run a small civil engineering business & almost daily will tow double axle trailers with laden weights between 2 – 3t, we use a 2011 Discovery 4 commercial or a 2010 ISUZU Rodeo crewcab. We only tow our own materials, do we need Tacho’s ? If so, can you get tacho’s installed in a Discovery 4 ?what else do we also need ? what sort of costs are we looking at ?
Does it affect my insurance if we do not have a tacho ?
Do we need an operators licence ?
Would it be a better option to purchase a cheap 7.5t lorry ?
We were also looking at transporting boats for customers with the Discovery, I presume this would also need a tacho ?
Sorry for al the questions & thanks for any assistance
February 27th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Should i be using the tacho?
Hi I drive a 16 (17) seat minibus 4100kg , under a section 19 permit for a college. the bus does have a digital tacho fitted, but we do not have driver cards and the Tacho is not used. I doubt the college has operator licences and considers section 19 adequate.
As i Have grandfather D1+E (not hire reward) I tow a canoe trailer, braked and over 750kg,
I realise that for a business this would need a full D1+E commercial etc. At a guess the train weight will be about 5500kg
I am concerned, that because a tacho is fitted I must use it. but as it is a section 19 permit bus it could be used in the UK without a tacho (if it was not fitted) what is your view
February 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
WOW, what an amazing site. thank you so much.
I have come to realise that VOSA dont even know the rules. so frustrating. we were stopped and told we had to fit a tacho to our Isuzu rodeo as we were towing a trailer. we build wooden buildings and put them up almost anywhere in the country. so at great expense we had one fitted. there is very little help in any aspect of the tacho from the authorities regarding regulations.
talking to a lorry driver recently he informed us that we would need to have a cpc that will come in to force by 2014. also he stated that our ford transit (that does not have a tow bar) will need a tacho in the future. is this true?
and he also said that because we have a digital tacho card that we have to carry it all of the time, even when driving our private vehichles.
all 3 of us in the business have a digital card, but only two of us have experience in towing a trailer. so what is the point in having a card, making sure you keep to the hours but dont need any training?
can this government get any more mad and screw the small businesses any more?
thanks for any replys.
Darren.
Keep up the great work.
March 1st, 2012 at 9:10 am
Brian – Whether you need a tachograph or not will depend on how far your business travels with the trailer attached. Give me a call on 01623 675833 to discuss it.
You will not need an operators licence unless the unladen weight of the trailers is greater than 1020kg.
With regards to the 7,500kg lorry, that may be a cheaper option, but it is not a simple yes/no I am afraid.
Best Regards
Nigel
March 1st, 2012 at 9:13 am
David – You do not need to use the tachograph in the UK driving the mini-bus you describe, but we need to be certain about the hire and reward part of the restriction on your licence.
Also you will need to have passed your periodic driver CPC training for a D1 vehicle.
Best suggestion is give me a call 01623 675833 and I can understand you specifics better.
Best Regards
Nigel
March 1st, 2012 at 9:16 am
Darren – First you do not need a driver CPC for a Class B vehicle (Your Rodeo and Transit).
There is no regulation for tachographs in sub 3,500 kg vehicles.
You should carry your digital smart card with you, but you do not HAVE to in your private vehicle.
As long as you have a B+E driving licence you can tow a trailer, but I would recommend training if you have not towed before.
I am happy to discuss it in more detail if you would like to. Call me on 01623 675833.
Best Regards
Nigel
March 1st, 2012 at 9:07 pm
Nigel,
With regard to my email 2nd jan. 2012, I see by all the correspondence, this is not an easy issue to understand there seems to be so many different ways to read the law.
I have even contacted VOSA, and firstly was sent an attachment that I had already seen, so I emailed back giving a couple of vehicle and trailer combinations, and asked if I required an o license, in so many words they told me I wouldn’t need an o license because is was not for hire and reward,( operating on your own account) eventhough the gross of the vehicle and trailer were over 3.5t, because it was operating on your own account the trailer because it weighs under 1020kg unladen this does not need to be taken into account.
From this example could you possibly clarify what is needed in terms o license please.
Discovery 4 Commercial( no second row of seats) approx 2500kg will be towing a trailer 900kg with a combined gross in excess of 3.5t, operating on my own account, would I be exempt from any o license or do I start looking for a vehicle under 2040kg dual purpose vehicle( which there aren’t many if you want to tow a reasonable load). What about vans towing, the examples given on the VOSA notification of the new law show many combinations saying no o license needed but is that not at all or do you need a restricted o license.
Nearly forgot on the email from VOSA, they state this is of the opinion of the department that only a court of law will determine the correct ruling, hold on a minute if you cant tell me the correct way to run legally who the chuff can…..Nigel I hope, thanks again
March 1st, 2012 at 10:55 pm
thanks you very much for your reply. it is so good to have found someone with lots of knowledge.
thank you again,
Darren.
March 9th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
OK let us try and get this straight…..oh sorry let us try and interpret what VOSA think is straight……I am the Transport Manager for an exhibition trailer manufacturer and hirer, we have over 30 trailers which take any towing vehicle GTW over 3500kgs. We have an operators licence, which actually we do not need but it is a very very good discipline, but all our vehicles have Tachographs…WHY…because VOSA from one district to another have different interpretations of their own “guidelines”. e.g. Once stopped no Tacho operating (drivers error), “oh you are exhibition so no goods for sale in the back …keep going.” Next stop..”you are being paid (hire and reward) to take that trailer so must have a Tacho” well two fingers to VOSA we did, and correctly calibrated, with all records for previous 28 days etc. BASICALLY anything over 3500kgs is deemed to be dangerous to other users if not driven correctly or maintained correctly. So VOSA do the good thing, set a limit…could be 4000kgs, but everything over it must have a Tacho fitted….it will make life so much easier and safer for all of us …remember the worst relevant accident was a private car and trailer falling off a motorway bridge because the driver fell asleep, that is what this is all about.
March 19th, 2012 at 12:28 am
Hi thanks for the info above I have a problem i need to solve. I want to tow a caravan that is 2.5 m wide with a Jaguar S type the weight is ok,I have the leicences in place. This is for my own personal use not work.
Can any one help?
regards
Alan
March 19th, 2012 at 9:01 am
Hi Alan,
That is an easy one. If you have a B+E licence and it is within the capacity of the car you can tow the caravan. All the legislation here relates to business not personal use.
If you are still unsure please give me a call on 01623 675833
March 20th, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Hi, Along with everyone on here this tacho rule is causing me an issue, I had to pass the B+E test to tow trailers which cost a fair bit and now this again causes more problems.
I do corporate events which invlove driving a 3.5 tonne van from only a short distance up to 3 hours each direction on some days. Normally this doesnt need a tacho but occasionally I tow trailers as well which would require a tacho from what I have read.
If I only tow a trailer on one day in a week am I right in thinking I must record all my driving and working hours for the entire week although would only need the tacho on the specific day of towing? When the tacho card is not required would a digital tacho record driving times and speeds still?
During the day of towing the trailer if it took 2 hours to get to the job where I drove and then registered as being on break, if other people drive the van on site (private groud) before I then drive it home again will this cause problems on the read outs?
Many thanks and sorry for so many questions.
March 21st, 2012 at 9:54 am
Nigel, in post 115 you say “I will post the detail when we have finished discussing it with our teams of solicitors we work with.” with regard to requiring an operator license on all vehicles towing for business with a combination weight of more than 3500Kg, is there any update on this? or have I missed it when speed reading the remainder of the posts?
Regards
Barry
March 28th, 2012 at 1:22 am
A quick query here please. I have a Land Rover Discovery with which I propose to tow a six wheel ex-military (I think) boat trailer. The auctioneer described the trailer as a “six ton trailer” however the NATO hitch if it ever had one, has been replaced with an old fashioned heavily over-engineered 50mm hitch. AFAIK this hitch plus the over-run brakes makes the trailer into a 3.5 ton gross trailer. It is planned to move a boat weighing about 2.5 tons. The boat actually belongs to a friend who will hopefully pay for the fuel so the job is being done as a hobby or favour and its not for financial gain. Do the tachograph rules apply and does the fact that I have an interest in the boat exempt me from the immense amount of officialdom? I have seen boat trailers pulled over before (in one case it was a Renault Master van towing a 30 foot boat and although the van could pull the trailer OK I think that the towing limit on many vehicles is only two tonnes.
March 29th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
I bought some stuff from a farmer who had been retrieving and recycling abandoned boats from the canal. He was also building a superb heavy duty trailer “That’s going to be my lorry” he said, adding that he had had so much hassle with officialdom about his lorry that he had given up, surrendered the licences and told them all to stuff it. These modern 4×4 tractors can really move some stuff although in Cornwall there was a test case which VOSA lost. A farmer had lent another farmer a builders dumper in order to clear manure out of his chicken sheds. On the return journey with the dumper on a trailer, VOSA accused the dumper owner of “transporting plant” i.e. non-agricultural use. They came a cropper on that one! There are some tremendous exemptions if one knows what is what, for example it is perfectly legal to drive an eight ton JCB on a car licence, no HGV licence is required because it is not a goods vehicle! Nil illigitimus carborundum!
March 29th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Joe – It might be helpful if we discuss your case over the phone as it is not a simple one to answer fully on line.
Call me 01623 675833
Best Regards
Nigel
March 29th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Barry – The new information has been uploaded here : http://www.yourroadrisk.co.uk/2012/03/29/towing-trailers-and-operator-licensing-new-regulations/
Best Regards
Nigel
March 29th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Davey – If your friend transports his own boat he does not need a tachograph. If you do it for him then you would in the eyes of the law.
You may also need to have an operator’s licence too.
I don’t think is quite the answer you wanted, but at least you know.
Call me if you need any advice on 01623 675833.
Best Regards
Nigel
April 4th, 2012 at 12:07 am
Hi Nigel, looking for a easy answer if possible.
Own a tyre garage, and own a lwb sprinter with 3500kgGVW
Once a month i fill the van with the old tyres and take them to the disposal place. 180 tyres in the sprinter and the actual weight is about 3450kg.
I plan on picking up part worn tyres down south which is about a 600 mile round trip. I reckon i will be making the trip 4-8 times a year.
To make it worth while i am wanting to tow a horsebox down with me and fill it aswell. the horsebox is 906KG unladen and will probably be about 1800kg when full of tyres.
Obviously at this point the van/trailer combination will be 5300kg when full and 3000kg when empty.
Will i need a tacho even just for the 4-8 (300/600 mile) trips.
Thanks in advance.
Graeme
April 4th, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Graeme – The very short answer is YES, you will need a tachograph for those 3-8 trips.
Sorry.
Best Regards
Nigel
April 15th, 2012 at 10:55 am
do i need an operators licence to tow a car trailer behind my boxer van the van is 2.8ton gross the trailer is 2.6 ton gross and weighs 600kg when empty has vosa ever prosecuted van drivers for not having an operators licence?
if i need one it seems crazy i can sell both the van and trailer and run a 3.5 ton beavertail pick up without the need for tacho or operators licence idecided on trailer and van combo yo stay within weight limits. thanks paul
April 15th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Paul – It depends if you own the car or not. If you own the car then no, if you are transporting someone else’s car then yes.
If you tow it behind a 4×4, you would also not need an operators licence.
Either way you will need a tachograph.
Call me on 06123 675833 if you want any more help.
Best Regards
Nigel
April 19th, 2012 at 12:37 am
Loads of really useful info here, as many others have said – a great web site, however my particular problem hasn’t quite been covered so perhaps you can help?
I have a LWB transit & when loaded it is around the 3200 – 3300kg mark, so pretty close to its limit (3500kg GVW) What I want to know is can I tow a caravan with this vehicle when the caravan is for entirely personal & non-business purposes, without the pain of having to have a tacho?
April 19th, 2012 at 3:46 pm
Iain – Yes, you can tow a caravan for personal use as it is outside the requirements of tachographs.
Best Regards
Nigel